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Tuesday, August 15, 2006

Grabbing the Troll Bat

I have been having an ongoing "conversation" with someone calling himself Skeptikwon in the thread of my "How to Spot a Troll" post. What started out briefly as a decent exchange quickly degenerated into a fruitless exercise.

Skeptikwon pissed me off for, among other things, misreading things I wrote more than once, and then demanding that I answer for things I did not say.


I am posting my last post in that thread here, because it speaks not only to Skeptikwon, but to all of those who tried to feed me the same old tired dregs that are their talking points. I warned Skeptikwon that I did not suffer fools gladly, and I make good on that promise.

Portions of his post are in italics.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You are extraordinarily arrogant.

First, Uh, no, I am not arrogant. I do not, however, suffer foolishness and a waste of my time gladly. I DID warn you of this, did I not? You waste my time with absurdity, I am going to point it out to you in no uncertain terms. I gave you a chance and you turned out to behave like a child, unwilling to acknowledge the simplest errors on your part.

Second, why am I the arrogant one when you are the one who makes all sorts of grand assertion without backing them up? Why am I arrogant because I get annoyed that you, more than once, misread what I wrote and then use that misreading to attack me?

Remember that pot and kettle thing I mentioned before?

Let us return to your last post so I can again point out your errors:

This is what you wrote.

"Despite hysterical rhetoric to the contrary, there was no widespread, or even appreciable, backlash against Middle Easterners and Muslims, citizens or otherwise, in the US after 9/11"

Note the or otherwise. I can read, and I can see where the confusion comes from without being rude.


Skep, the 'otherwise' in that sentence does not in anyway create confusion, except in your own mind. You took that passage and came up with this:

“I see your post on the alleged hijacking plot where you say there has been no US action against muslims for 9/11. Are you serious? How many people have died in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Gaza since then in your GWOT?”

The entire post, and the passage you quoted, deals with reaction to Muslims IN THE US, whether citizens or aliens. You did not bother to actually read what I wrote the first time (probably because you have all your talking points already churning in your head) and even upon rereading it, you still try to construe some meaning which is not there. Don't try to argue it because it is staring you right in the face. Whether it is a willful disregard for what I wrote, or simply your emotions running away with you, I am not sure.

Anyway, I took your advice and reread your Gaza thing. I wish now that I'd read it before commenting. I read some ugly antiJew stuff on arab sites that make me cringe. Your essay is on a par with those..

And AGAIN, you make vile, broadbrush accusations without ANY examples cited. I'm arrogant? Please.

Oh, and, I see you can now admit that there is "ugly antiJew" stuff on Arab sites? Wow! Maybe I am making headway. From your earlier comments, it seemed like you had trouble conceiving of "non-friendly" Arabs at all. So, now you admit there are at least some Arabs filled with ugly hatred toward Jews? Excellent.

The only difference is that you have no excuse.

Oh, I understand now. Even though you now admit that there is virulent hatred of Jews among some Arabs, it is not really their fault. They are blameless for their hatred (and I assume then the violence that comes from it), but I should be full of guilt. THEY have an excuse for their hatred, so they are to be exempt from criticism let alone condemnation.

So, is this a racist thing? Are Arabs to be considered so ignorant and primitive, like children, that they can’t be held responsible? Or is it the “only the white Westerner” can be guilty of crimes and inhumanity due to the “Anglo-Saxon Patriarchal Power Structure”?

It is your country doing most of the killing and destroying.

Oh, Really? How many Arabs and Muslims have been killed by their own kind in the last 30 years? 20 score more than by the US, if not much more, and yet you seem oddly unconcerned about that bloodshed. Less than concerned, actually, because you never seem to mention it.

Let's take Iraq. The vast majority of Iraqis killed nowadays are killed by US troops? Or is it by other Iraqis and fellow Muslims from other nations?

But, what about before the invasion? Who was killing all the Muslims in Iraq then? Wasn’t it Saddam and his Sunni Arab henchmen lining them up and shooting them into mass graves? Gassing them in their villages?

And destruction?

Do you know that far more damage to the infrastructure of Iraq was done by Saddam's deprivations before he was overthrown, than by US military action? He spent the billions on his palaces and his leisure while he let the country run itself down. Do you care? Of course not, because then you can't blame the United States for it, right?

And is it the US blowing up pipelines and electrical plants and hospitals in Iraq, or is it the 'insurgents'? And are the insurgents Norwegian Lutherans, or some other group?

I sincerely hope you wake up one day and see what you and many of your countrmen have become. I imagine Germany in the 30s was similar.

Spare me the Nazi comparisons. We've heard it all before, and it is not only lame but clich├ęd. It is, however, a nice end cap for you, I admit.

It illustrates both your historical ignorance and your lack of comprehension of current events. You ever read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? Do you know the tactics Hitler used to hoodwink the European powers? Some much of it is right out of terrorists and tyrants playbook, it is astounding.

Preach peace to the world, but call for war to your followers.

When confronted with your crimes, ignore it and point out your accusers' failings.

Play the victim while oppressing others.

Test your tactics and weapons out in proxy wars.

That the fact that you 'imagine', rather than know what Germany in the 30's was like speaks volumes. I imagine that you 'imagine' a lot about both history and current events.

Here, you want to make Nazi comparisons, Skep?


Look at them.








Who do they look like, Skeptikwon?



That salute look familiar at all, my friend?





























Here's a little visual aid to help with your history lesson.








It doesn't end with a salute. The mass murder comes along with it, does it not?

Arabs and Muslims have been murdering and oppressing one another for the last century and the body count from that is in the millions. Further, Arabs and Muslims are responsible for murder and destruction the world over, from Bali to Darfur to Turkey and on and on.

Tell me, oh stalwart defender of Arab/Muslim honor, what have the Africans of Darfur done to deserve their treatment at the hands of the Janjaweed? Tell me of the 'friendly Arab' horsemen who ride into villages, raping and killing and enslaving for fun and profit.

Oh, that's right, it is hard if not impossible to somehow pin their crimes on the US or Israel, so you don't really give a shit, do you?

You're not alone, obviously. You and the UN and the feckless Europeans cry and wail over the deaths in Lebanon, but far more people are dying brutally in Darfur in what could only be called a genocide if that term means anything at all. But, you don't give a good goddamn if you even recognize it at all. You can’t, can you, because then the claim that Arabs/Muslims are eternal, innocent victims of Western Imperialism and Evil Zionism falls flat on its face.

You are a loathsome hypocrite or a mindless parrot, take your pick. You look past the mountains of bodies lying at the feet of mass murderers and tyrants because they do not represent the ideological arch-enemy you love to loathe.

Do I think all Arabs and Muslims are murdering terrorists and tyrants?


Far from it. I know that is not the case. I know that, by far, the victims of these bastards are fellow Arabs and Muslims. Just like German Jews, and others, were murdered by their compatriots, those most suffering from Islamosfacism and Middle Eastern tyranny are those two groups.

But just as not all Germans were Nazis, the vicious ideology which is fueling the Islamofascists (yeah, Islamofascists, Skep) threatens to overwhelm or cowe the rest. Just like the Nazis, opposition is met with brutal and deadly force to force others in line or to simply eliminate them. The terrorists and thugs that you refuse to acknowledge will drag the innocent into a world-wide conflagration making the deaths in Lebanon a footnote in history.

Your willful ignorance, whether born of indoctrination or simple need to be contrarian, is helping to make this coming conflict all the more possible, just like the Second World War. Lenin had his useful idiots, Hitler had his, and now the 21st century fascists have theirs. Congratulations and welcome to the club. The blood is not only on your hands, but it is smeared all over your mouth thanks to the idiocy spewing from it. I hope you choke on it. Idiot.

(And yes, if you darken my blog door with your idiocy again, expect to get another whack with the Troll bat. Get vile, and I will delete your ass.)


5 comments:

Jason H. Bowden said...

Skeptikwon is an islamoleftist troll I've seen on my blog. Until he admits that Hamas, the Hezb'Allah, and Islamic Jihad are fascist organizations dedicated to the slaughter of every Jew living in Israel, I do not permit him to post on my blog.

Period.

I'm glad you're doing the same. While Islamoleftists like to infect states like Lebanon to help spread their disease, they should not infect our blogs to spread their propaganda. Discussion and argument clearly is not the purpose of 'skeptikwon' and other miscreants.

Weary G said...

Jason,

I had Skep's number early on, but I don't like to pass on an opportunity to first enlighten, and then embarrass, someone who is so ill-informed or zealous.

I don't intend to ban or delete his comments outright for now. I have just taken the kid gloves off when dealing with him/her. I tried being polite and that failed. While I know at this point it is impossible to persuade Skep of anything, I look forward to pointing out the ludicrous nature of his thinking/posturing for others to see. He may be too far gone, but others are not. We don't need to convince the zealots, just those who might fall for their propaganda.

What is funny in a way is that people like Skep think they are accomplishing something for their side with this disinformation effort at various sites. Sometimes they do when people continue to take them seriously and waste too much time and energy on them.

However, the way I look at it, learning to refute their ‘arguments’ in the quickest and most incisive way is good writing and analytical practice. It helps when arguing issues later with people who have sort of intellectual honesty and can be reached.

So, what people like Skep are accomplishing is ultimately undermining their own incoherent arguments and strengthening those based on logic and facts. Plus, I got a pretty good post out of dismantling his dissembling.

Having said that, I hear ya’ about having to deep six Skep. I can certainly see moderating comments myself later on. At some point the pointless and largely repetitive rhetoric gets exhausting. Also, I think the strongest punishment is to deny them a petulant voice.

Anyway, thank you for your support, Jason. I checked out both your sites. Very nice. I’ll have to stop by more often. Keep up the good fight.

jgr said...

Weary, I enjoyed your destruction of these propaganda points. I appreciate the Nazi tie ins, with pics. Well done.

I had a nice bout with some of the same trolltypes--pre set talking points, distortion of arguments, personal attack. Argument was good practice for me,as you say, but wasteful, too. I don't want to waste time on them. What's interesting is that thuggery really doesn't work as well in blog matches as thugs wish it would.

Here's a link to ponder. I'm hoping others will notice something I've missed. Maybe RJ Neuhaus has it wrong, along with the Mary Habeck book he's reviewing in The Two Hundred Year War. If not..

I used to read much SF when growing up, and there were those stories about alien invasions meant to destroy us all. I think we may have found such are not SF fantasies.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0604/public.html

Weary G said...

JGR,

I once compared trolls to guerillas and insurgents in their tactics, and I think the comparison still holds.

They are not interested in winning the conventional sense, in that they know they do not have the tools and the talent to win in the war/debate. The tactic is to simply try to disrupt and wear down. Their trolling comments are meant as conversational IEDs, not tactically a brilliant weapon, but in the aggregate, over time, they are meant to exhaust the overall effort.

Again to return to the Nazi comparisons (because hey, Skep started it) the tactic is also akin to the big lie theory. Tell the falsehood often enough, and it will become reality.

As I am sure you know, there are various tactics to deal with trolls, and you can yield some interesting results. The best, I find, is when you get under their skin and the pure vitriolic, even bigotted hate, pours forth from them.

You are right, however, when you say that you can end up wasting time on them, and it is an interesting thing to ponder the guidelines for when diminishing returns set in with a troll.

Thanks for the link, btw. I don't think you need to look to SF for invasions, though. What too many don't quite realize (because we've been so far removed from the brutality of invasion and oppression) is that so many civilizations have been razed throughout history.

Too many people seem to believe we live in some Never-Never land where nothing ever that bad could ever happen, that our relative peace, safety and prosperity is part of the natural order and never-ending. Athens, Rome, Babylon, etc. all thought the same way too, until the rapes, plunder, arson and destruction swept in.

Wow, kind of an intense way to start a morning.

jgr said...

Weary,

This strikes me as fundamental
"..big lie theory. Tell the falsehood often enough, and it will become reality." As you have said in your blog's opening, the Left has the US by the throat with the Big Lie.

Too many Americans can no more deal with reality than can we shut down the entire MSM. (Do A.Solz's comments ever ring right, even in 1978!)
I understand why the Left/Dems insist upon disinformation on every aspect of politics, culture, law, even national identity. The great discussions (at times) at NeoNC's site give me insights, as well as writings at American Thinker and others.
Dr. Sanity notes today that 'beating on Bush' continues, partially because the PResident, as even 'the most powerful man in the world,' has bowed to the political reality of useating the Lie.
Bush does his job in spite of the Lie, and abstains from Clinton demagoguery. The problem remains: too many citizens want the big Liar back! We American voters like our Lie better.